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	<title>Comments on: The deepest woo-woo</title>
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	<link>http://www.consciousentities.com/?p=13</link>
	<description>If the conscious self is an illusion - who is it that&#039;s being fooled?</description>
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		<title>By: David Nyman</title>
		<link>http://www.consciousentities.com/?p=13&#038;cpage=1#comment-133547</link>
		<dc:creator>David Nyman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 12:49:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve read Strawson&#039;s book, which of course includes a large number of comments and criticisms from other authors, and his responses to them.  I must say that in the end, though he makes a number of good points, and some of his critics a number of bad ones, I&#039;m not terribly happy with the overall cogency of the outcome.  In particular, it&#039;s rather unclear from his analysis at what level of explanation fundamental phenomenal properties are supposed to be situated.  Surely &quot;red&quot; is not already to be found at the level of the smallest entities?  But if not, what possible combination of non-red micro-properties (bearing in mind his own denial of emergence in this sense) could coherently be supposed to constitute a &quot;red&quot; experience?  Having said this, neither I nor anyone else to my knowledge has any inkling of the explanation either, so it would perhaps be unfair to be too critical on that score.

I have however one further comment to make.  It seemed to me some of the distance between Strawson and his critics might be bridged by agreeing that reality is participatory - in the sense I think that Wheeler intended - and that this is fundamental irrespective of whether we are considering its mental or material aspects.  In that case it would not be so much whether it is necessarily always &quot;like&quot; something to participate in such a reality (I agree with your deconstruction of this sense of &quot;like&quot;), but that it always IS something, with some ineliminable sense of &quot;personal participation&quot;.  How such &quot;isness&quot; would ultimately apprehend itself under the appropriate conditions would inevitably be sui generis - incommensurable in some fundamental sense - but its structure and functions, for specific purposes, could potentially be abstractable more or less convincingly and to some degree of precision.

What I&#039;m saying amounts I suppose to a denial of an &quot;arm&#039;s length&quot; view of reality, which poses the artificial problem of how to integrate our participation after the fact, as it were.  It is perhaps this &quot;view from  nowhere&quot; that leads to the apparent paradox of emergence.  If instead we grant at the outset that reality IS participation, we could perhaps find more intuitive - or at least less nausea-inducing - the idea that such participation could eventually yield the sort of self-apprehension characteristic of mind, without the need to transcend a singular category of situated reality.

This hardly amounts to a solution of the mind-body problem, but agreement on some such conceptual levelling of the playing field might help to make some of the detailed disagreements less confusing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve read Strawson&#8217;s book, which of course includes a large number of comments and criticisms from other authors, and his responses to them.  I must say that in the end, though he makes a number of good points, and some of his critics a number of bad ones, I&#8217;m not terribly happy with the overall cogency of the outcome.  In particular, it&#8217;s rather unclear from his analysis at what level of explanation fundamental phenomenal properties are supposed to be situated.  Surely &#8220;red&#8221; is not already to be found at the level of the smallest entities?  But if not, what possible combination of non-red micro-properties (bearing in mind his own denial of emergence in this sense) could coherently be supposed to constitute a &#8220;red&#8221; experience?  Having said this, neither I nor anyone else to my knowledge has any inkling of the explanation either, so it would perhaps be unfair to be too critical on that score.</p>
<p>I have however one further comment to make.  It seemed to me some of the distance between Strawson and his critics might be bridged by agreeing that reality is participatory &#8211; in the sense I think that Wheeler intended &#8211; and that this is fundamental irrespective of whether we are considering its mental or material aspects.  In that case it would not be so much whether it is necessarily always &#8220;like&#8221; something to participate in such a reality (I agree with your deconstruction of this sense of &#8220;like&#8221;), but that it always IS something, with some ineliminable sense of &#8220;personal participation&#8221;.  How such &#8220;isness&#8221; would ultimately apprehend itself under the appropriate conditions would inevitably be sui generis &#8211; incommensurable in some fundamental sense &#8211; but its structure and functions, for specific purposes, could potentially be abstractable more or less convincingly and to some degree of precision.</p>
<p>What I&#8217;m saying amounts I suppose to a denial of an &#8220;arm&#8217;s length&#8221; view of reality, which poses the artificial problem of how to integrate our participation after the fact, as it were.  It is perhaps this &#8220;view from  nowhere&#8221; that leads to the apparent paradox of emergence.  If instead we grant at the outset that reality IS participation, we could perhaps find more intuitive &#8211; or at least less nausea-inducing &#8211; the idea that such participation could eventually yield the sort of self-apprehension characteristic of mind, without the need to transcend a singular category of situated reality.</p>
<p>This hardly amounts to a solution of the mind-body problem, but agreement on some such conceptual levelling of the playing field might help to make some of the detailed disagreements less confusing.</p>
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