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	<title>Comments on: Theory theory and other theories</title>
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	<link>http://www.consciousentities.com/?p=79</link>
	<description>If the conscious self is an illusion - who is it that&#039;s being fooled?</description>
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		<title>By: Paul Bello</title>
		<link>http://www.consciousentities.com/?p=79&#038;cpage=1#comment-106138</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Bello</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:15:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Thanks Peter,
I&#039;m noncommital about whether such simulations are entirely consciously accessible.  At least from the standpoint of empathy, disgust, fear-response, and other &quot;low-level&quot; cognitive phenomena, the neuroscience and psychology suggests that our conscious feelings/judgments about others largely stems from unconscious assessments of self-other similarity, etc.  So I&#039;m not sure what Herschbach means when he says someone &quot;runs a model.&quot;  This sort of statement entails some sort of intentional choice to simulate, which again, I&#039;m unclear about. Thus my willingness to consider his phenomenological camp a member of the set of online simulation theories stems from the possibility that online simulation is largely automatic and often unconsious.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Peter,<br />
I&#8217;m noncommital about whether such simulations are entirely consciously accessible.  At least from the standpoint of empathy, disgust, fear-response, and other &#8220;low-level&#8221; cognitive phenomena, the neuroscience and psychology suggests that our conscious feelings/judgments about others largely stems from unconscious assessments of self-other similarity, etc.  So I&#8217;m not sure what Herschbach means when he says someone &#8220;runs a model.&#8221;  This sort of statement entails some sort of intentional choice to simulate, which again, I&#8217;m unclear about. Thus my willingness to consider his phenomenological camp a member of the set of online simulation theories stems from the possibility that online simulation is largely automatic and often unconsious.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www.consciousentities.com/?p=79&#038;cpage=1#comment-106058</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 22:56:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.consciousentities.com/?p=79#comment-106058</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No need to apologise, Lloyd. Actually yes, I do want a comprehensive and unslippery theory, but I realise I&#039;m not going to get one!

Thanks, Paul. If I&#039;ve understood him correctly Herschbach believes the people he puts into the phenomenological camp would rule out simulation, believing that we understand the behaviour of other people without running any kind of model. Whether this is plausible may depend on what you understand by a &#039;simulation&#039;. You say, pertinently, &#039;every major theoretical approach is sorely lacking in formal detail&#039; - yes, indeed. The formal details are where it gets tough (but surely also where big rewards might be found). I salute what you&#039;re doing in this respect.

Drawn at its broadest, I reckon the task of understanding each other is one of the hardest we face, and it&#039;s likely that all our mental faculties are called for in dauntingly complicated combinations.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No need to apologise, Lloyd. Actually yes, I do want a comprehensive and unslippery theory, but I realise I&#8217;m not going to get one!</p>
<p>Thanks, Paul. If I&#8217;ve understood him correctly Herschbach believes the people he puts into the phenomenological camp would rule out simulation, believing that we understand the behaviour of other people without running any kind of model. Whether this is plausible may depend on what you understand by a &#8216;simulation&#8217;. You say, pertinently, &#8216;every major theoretical approach is sorely lacking in formal detail&#8217; &#8211; yes, indeed. The formal details are where it gets tough (but surely also where big rewards might be found). I salute what you&#8217;re doing in this respect.</p>
<p>Drawn at its broadest, I reckon the task of understanding each other is one of the hardest we face, and it&#8217;s likely that all our mental faculties are called for in dauntingly complicated combinations.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Bello</title>
		<link>http://www.consciousentities.com/?p=79&#038;cpage=1#comment-106039</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Bello</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:05:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.consciousentities.com/?p=79#comment-106039</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Perhaps I&#039;m misunderstanding the difference between the &quot;phenomenological approach&quot; and the simulation theory.  One of the main difficulties in assessing any claims about ascription of mental states (to self or other) is that almost every major theoretical approach is sorely lacking in formal detail.  A few of us are working on implementations of computational cognitive architectures capable of ascribing (some) mental states in the context of performing perspective-taking and false-belief tasks.  As far as I can tell, there are more than one approach to mental simulation -- both offline (as you&#039;ve described it) and online (mostly championed by Robert Gordon).  Online simulation seems to have the same sorts of qualities as the so-called &quot;phenomenological&quot; or eliminativist approach you mention.

I think in the abstract, you are right -- mental state attribution cannot be computationally characterized as purely theory or purely simulation.  Given the sheer volume of simulation required to participate in even the simplest dialogue, or in recognizing intentions in the routine actions of your coworkers, friends and family, it seems that at the least, simulations must be stored and possibly reified in the service of theory-driven inferences.  But attribution of default beliefs to agents we&#039;ve never encountered before, and the profound evidence for shared self-other neural circuitry in service of empathy *and* recognition of intention-in-action (grasps, reaches, etc) speaks against a purely theory-based approach.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps I&#8217;m misunderstanding the difference between the &#8220;phenomenological approach&#8221; and the simulation theory.  One of the main difficulties in assessing any claims about ascription of mental states (to self or other) is that almost every major theoretical approach is sorely lacking in formal detail.  A few of us are working on implementations of computational cognitive architectures capable of ascribing (some) mental states in the context of performing perspective-taking and false-belief tasks.  As far as I can tell, there are more than one approach to mental simulation &#8212; both offline (as you&#8217;ve described it) and online (mostly championed by Robert Gordon).  Online simulation seems to have the same sorts of qualities as the so-called &#8220;phenomenological&#8221; or eliminativist approach you mention.</p>
<p>I think in the abstract, you are right &#8212; mental state attribution cannot be computationally characterized as purely theory or purely simulation.  Given the sheer volume of simulation required to participate in even the simplest dialogue, or in recognizing intentions in the routine actions of your coworkers, friends and family, it seems that at the least, simulations must be stored and possibly reified in the service of theory-driven inferences.  But attribution of default beliefs to agents we&#8217;ve never encountered before, and the profound evidence for shared self-other neural circuitry in service of empathy *and* recognition of intention-in-action (grasps, reaches, etc) speaks against a purely theory-based approach.</p>
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		<title>By: Lloyd Rice</title>
		<link>http://www.consciousentities.com/?p=79&#038;cpage=1#comment-105177</link>
		<dc:creator>Lloyd Rice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 00:12:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.consciousentities.com/?p=79#comment-105177</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry. Didn&#039;t mean to be flippant. I banged out my reply before I read your last paragraph. I  vote for some sort of messy combination of a sort-of folk psychology, not detailed enough to be refuted, mirror neurons which don&#039;t quite do all they&#039;re cracked up to do, and maybe (for the babies) the beginnings of rational thought. And I see no reason to believe that everybody does it the same way.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry. Didn&#8217;t mean to be flippant. I banged out my reply before I read your last paragraph. I  vote for some sort of messy combination of a sort-of folk psychology, not detailed enough to be refuted, mirror neurons which don&#8217;t quite do all they&#8217;re cracked up to do, and maybe (for the babies) the beginnings of rational thought. And I see no reason to believe that everybody does it the same way.</p>
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		<title>By: Lloyd Rice</title>
		<link>http://www.consciousentities.com/?p=79&#038;cpage=1#comment-105172</link>
		<dc:creator>Lloyd Rice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 23:50:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.consciousentities.com/?p=79#comment-105172</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You want a comprehensive theory. No room for slipperiness?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You want a comprehensive theory. No room for slipperiness?</p>
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